tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22055982.post1003841345572421274..comments2024-03-27T21:10:10.606-07:00Comments on eLearning Technology: Good WritingTony Karrerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15408035995182843336noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22055982.post-74623320417009518892009-02-16T05:51:00.000-08:002009-02-16T05:51:00.000-08:00Great post. Very interesting. I have always found ...Great post. Very interesting. I have always found the book "Communicating Technical Information" by Robert R. Rathborne (1985) to be a great resource to improve my writing.Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17904706065149954023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22055982.post-75871750222527024322009-02-13T09:03:00.000-08:002009-02-13T09:03:00.000-08:00Bullets one and two: I don't care if you skim or ...Bullets one and two: I don't care if you skim or dive. They had very specific aims, easy to capture. The detail's there because, despite claiming you don't read it, I know from working for you that you <I>do</I> want it -- or, more likely, that I'll need to prove to you that it was there all along.<BR/><BR/>(At one job, the admin assistant never, ever left our boss the original of a document. If it needed a signature, the admin waited while the boss signed. Otherwise, the original vanished into the Snowbank of Hung-Onto Stuff and never again saw the light of day.)<BR/><BR/>There <I>isn't</I> a way to give a bullet overview of the project plan -- because the plan's more complicated that a single line. <BR/><BR/>The bullet ever so gently says, "Go look."<BR/><BR/>"Just give me the bottom line" people sometimes think lines are the only reality. They <I>like</I> "Project plan looks good." Then, when they learn too late (because they skimmed inadequately) that A, B, and C are great, while D is mediocre, and problems may occur with E if F doesn't happy till March, they turn red and shout, "Why didn't you let me know?"<BR/><BR/>So bullet 3 demonstrates a situation in which the <I>amount of summary</I> would not fit well into a single bullet. <BR/><BR/>You're gonna have to dive.<BR/><BR/>(That's where the handy, within-the-section organizers come in.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22055982.post-39140569617866491672009-02-13T07:07:00.000-08:002009-02-13T07:07:00.000-08:00Hi, a friend sent me this a while ago - I don't th...Hi, a friend sent me this a while ago - I don't think its 100% what you are looking for and even though I'm not doing any academic writing I found it useful http://www.academicladder.com/2006/8-ways-to-simplify-overly-complex-writing-thinking-november-27.htmAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22055982.post-81369117527342085822009-02-13T06:17:00.000-08:002009-02-13T06:17:00.000-08:00As someone who is totally immersed in this these d...As someone who is totally immersed in this these days, there are really 4 different schools of thought on writing instruction. The 5 paragraph approach is now embedded in our current system because it is fairly easy to standardize and assess. <BR/><BR/>However, many who teach writing, and writing researchers look more to the communicative or rhetorical approach to writing. As Nancy commented, this looks at the purpose and audience of the writing and students learn that writing is not standard. This means that a report that will be a permenant record will have a certain style that will be different from a web page.<BR/><BR/>If you are interested in the transition between academic and workplace writing a great resource is "Worlds Apart" (Dias, Freedman, Medway, and Pare, 1999) which looks at research on the difference between the two contexts, looking specifically at students as they go through the transition.V Yonkershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11910904367068063554noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22055982.post-34547791367964217732009-02-13T06:07:00.000-08:002009-02-13T06:07:00.000-08:00Dave - what's beautiful about those bullets is tha...Dave - what's beautiful about those bullets is that I know what you are really asking of me. Actually Bullet 3 I don't know. <BR/><BR/>On bullet 1 - Would you expect that I would skim or read the details? (Note: I would skim.)Tony Karrerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15408035995182843336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22055982.post-2612481214711872812009-02-13T05:50:00.000-08:002009-02-13T05:50:00.000-08:00Goldilocks was just three examples of structure. ...Goldilocks was just three examples of structure. I've often done taken the Momma Bear approach in a lengthy email, for example, as in:<BR/><BR/><I>Tony, I'm writing to:<BR><BR/> - Update you on my meeting with Ronnie (she's okay with the plan)<BR><BR/> - Request your OK for the YaddaYadda conference (May, $1800)<BR><BR/> - Give an overview of the attached project plan</I><BR/><BR/>The idea is that these three are related, or that you as my boss prefer one email to three. (See? Contetual!) Thanks to the mini exec summary (or table of contents), you already know the outcome of two items. And you figure detail for item three will appear in... item three.<BR/><BR/>I'd go on from there. In the olden days I'd use all-cap headings for each major section; mixed case with a line of equal signs under for subheads.<BR/><BR/>Now I have bold, italic, other formats. I'd also use white space (the neglected organizer) to set things apart.<BR/><BR/>Does that help?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22055982.post-43162956831699240092009-02-13T05:14:00.000-08:002009-02-13T05:14:00.000-08:00@Dave - Thanks for the clarifying Tweet - I'm sugg...@Dave - Thanks for the clarifying Tweet - I'm suggesting the use of Title Case to indicate phrases with specific meanings. :)<BR/><BR/>@Nancy - When I search for Writing Next I find a great research report talking about the importance of specific elements. Several I'm not seeing in my kids curriculum - Collaborative Writing, Word Processing. I'm not seeing the details of writing styles via that search. Pointer?<BR/><BR/>In fairness - our El Segundo Schools start with writing in Kindergarten and it's wonderful to see how this helps the students in all sorts of ways. They have great rubrics. But that said - yes - the 1-3-1 format still is used and there's no indication of any teaching of the elements I'm describing here.<BR/><BR/>@Ken - Interesting question about speed reading vs. skimming. I need to ponder that.<BR/><BR/>@Michael - thanks for the point. Good bullet list in there (whoops I skimmed down to that). And it reminded me that I once saw this great thing about how in radio they structure things a particular way in order to engage and signpost things because there's no visual indicators. Looking at my suggestions - these are visual cues. Now where did I see that.<BR/><BR/>@Dave - Like the Goldilocks approach. Have you seen specific examples of this? Any thoughts on what this means for something like a blog post?Tony Karrerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15408035995182843336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22055982.post-69335510040720271892009-02-13T04:50:00.000-08:002009-02-13T04:50:00.000-08:00I agree in general organizational / structural ide...I agree in general organizational / structural ideas, which make sense for business writing. Goldilocks examples:<BR/><BR/>Poppa Bear--executive summary at the beginning of a lengthy, detailed document. The writer realizes he's not doing a movie script; the conclusion or recommendation doesn't have to wait till the third-from-last scene.<BR/><BR/>Momma Bear--subheads, bullet points, even five lines at the outset that explain the organization of what follows.<BR/><BR/>Baby Bear--a useful subject line in email. "Let's go with Acme" tells me a lot more than "Vendor summary and recommendation," let alone "Re: Re: Re: Vendor Selecti"<BR/><BR/>Things like level of language and amount of detail are part of that context. We all shift the formality and content of our speech depending on the listener. We can't know who our reader will be; the best we can do is be clear about who we <I>think</I> we're writing for, and to go about that consistently.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22055982.post-52419617983242920442009-02-13T04:06:00.000-08:002009-02-13T04:06:00.000-08:00Hi Tony, I blogged on this topic about 10 months a...Hi Tony, <BR/>I blogged on this topic about 10 months ago, yet it's something that is always relevant and pertinent. The core of my post was based upon <A HREF="http://elearningcurve.blogspot.com/2008/04/instructional-design-101-orwells-five_18.html" REL="nofollow">George Orwell's Five Rules for Writing Good English</A>, and in my view they're as relevant today as when they were written. Remember that Orwell was a radio reporter for the BBC, and the skills needed to write informative and engaging narrative for radio also apply for e-learning and instruciton.Michael Hanleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07213504001447084845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22055982.post-76557516806568251802009-02-12T19:17:00.000-08:002009-02-12T19:17:00.000-08:00Kia ora TonyI am a sceptic. I am sceptical of any ...Kia ora Tony<BR/><BR/>I am a sceptic. I am sceptical of any message that tells me what I should read and how I should read it. I'm also sceptical of a message that suggests that other people read the way the message has told me I should read.<BR/><BR/>I watch my daughters read, and they do read differently from me. Am I to tell them, "no, this is the way you should read"? Do you think they would listen to me if I did?<BR/><BR/>I think you are right to wonder about how writing is being interpreted by readers. But my hunch (and it is a hunch based on anecdotal evidence of watching young readers) is that not everyone reads the same way.<BR/><BR/>Speed reading is an art. I'm not talking about skimming here. Speed reading is also far more accurate and valuable than skimming, for the detail is taken in at a speed that is faster than the skimming reader can 'scan' the text.<BR/><BR/>Speed reading also increases concentration, so that detail as well as meaning is assimilated. It comes back to comprehension, which I have not seen a mention of on this post so far.<BR/><BR/>With speed reading, comprehension soars. Most people who read will have a comprehension level that varies with their environment, what's happening in their life at the moment, what's going through their head when they attempt to read. In short, their concentration is poor.<BR/><BR/>With speed reading concentration soars so that comprehension can reach astonishing levels, and I'm talking about 95% and above here. Compare this with 15% to 20% for a normal reading pace.<BR/><BR/>Catchya laterBlogger In Middle-earthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08722634477041121797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22055982.post-62583488779577534892009-02-12T18:44:00.000-08:002009-02-12T18:44:00.000-08:00Your kids certainly should be learning something b...Your kids certainly should be learning something better and more useful than the five paragraph essay. There really is no dearth of good writing pedagogy. If you want to know what good writing instruction includes, check out the "Writing Next." A quick Google will take you to it.<BR/><BR/>I'm not entirely sure what those commenting here mean when they say "the fundamentals." I get a little nervous when I see the word "fundamentals" showing up in a discussion about education, especially when it comes to writing.<BR/><BR/>Elementary schools students can and do learn to write. Struggling students---at elementary, middle and high school---can and do learn to write.<BR/><BR/>Students can be taught about audience and purpose, and that they must take both into consideration when they write. <BR/>Bill Jackson's comments articulate these considerations well.<BR/><BR/>Yes, I'm a high school English teacher and a writer.Nancy Devinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10895934793253274506noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22055982.post-48757321401502046482009-02-12T18:42:00.000-08:002009-02-12T18:42:00.000-08:00@Bill - good post.@Dave - fair enough. There like...@Bill - good post.<BR/><BR/>@Dave - fair enough. There likely are some people who have not given in to skim-dive-skim. I have no idea what the real percentages are. And likely the same person might read more deeply based on the context.<BR/><BR/>Isn't the trick to write for skimmers and readers in the same content? I believe that most of my suggestions work pretty well for both audiences.<BR/><BR/>But fair point by you - I'm thinking of myself and the people around me - mostly fellow skimmers. So, do the writing suggestions I made hinder reading for deeper readers?Tony Karrerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15408035995182843336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22055982.post-32750448606819546892009-02-12T17:20:00.000-08:002009-02-12T17:20:00.000-08:00One drawback I see is the assumption that most peo...One drawback I see is the assumption that most people do most of their reading on the web. Another is that the same style of reading applies in all formats (web, email, electronic documents, paper documents, magazines, newspapers, books).<BR/><BR/>How do <I>you</I> know that "we all" skim dive skim? Have you been hanging around my office lately? My hunch is that you skim and hang out with a lot of skimmers skimmers, so you end up thinking all swans are white.<BR/><BR/>Although your readers tell you, "no, that's not us," you don't accept it. So why ask? They may be self-reporting, but so are you.<BR/><BR/>And, honestly, are you recommending that someone striving for clarity <B>write like a lawyer?</B> What's the last end-user agreement, contract, or lease you skim dive skimmed?<BR/><BR/>Sweet suffering succotash, you'd be hard pressed to imagine another professional group with a more dismal, ponderous, pedantic, polysyllabic, tortuous--and <B>deserved</B>--reputation for writing intended mainly to lay boobytraps for the unwary while covering the client's rear.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14472035091582356778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22055982.post-51596658230752737692009-02-12T15:50:00.000-08:002009-02-12T15:50:00.000-08:00I skimmed your article, so I think you said someth...I skimmed your article, so I think you said something about good writing being short, concise and to the point. <BR/><BR/>I agree. <BR/><BR/>There is, in writing instruction, the notion of discourse communities (groups with specialized language--jargon--and particularized format. Blogging is a discourse community, as are IMs, e-mails and linked-in recommendations.<BR/><BR/>Instructional materials should reflect the community to which it addresses (the traditional audience) as well as the "grammar" or "rules" of the training medium. PPT slides are visual with very direct text. E-learning classes can offer more social scenarios for greater contextualization of content. And so on. <BR/><BR/>Good topic. <BR/><BR/>I have written more here: http://trainerbill.wordpress.com/2009/02/12/writing-for-th…ight-communitywriting-for-the-right-community/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22055982.post-48924177164552616082009-02-12T15:00:00.000-08:002009-02-12T15:00:00.000-08:00Jon - great points. It is about context. And I a...Jon - great points. It is about context. And I am talking about a certain kind of context. However, almost all of my writing fits that context ... writing for busy content consumers. What writing doesn't fit? ... writing a novel is different. But even writing for a business book or magazine article - that still should use these principles.<BR/><BR/>Teaching fundamentals is what K-12 is all about. However, I would think that this is part of the fundamentals. Maybe not during K-6, but certainly 7-12.Tony Karrerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15408035995182843336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22055982.post-44874278395291844812009-02-12T14:15:00.000-08:002009-02-12T14:15:00.000-08:00“What is good writing?” It is really all about con...“What is good writing?” It is really all about context. Although I agree that concise and bullet-pointed writing can be worthwhile in certain contexts, I do believe that teaching fundamentals is the first priority of a K-12 writing curriculum.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22055982.post-78757054363876369382009-02-12T06:38:00.000-08:002009-02-12T06:38:00.000-08:00thanks, it was a great post, very useful. Sorry I ...thanks, it was a great post, very useful. Sorry I can't help with defining good writing, but I do agree with the points you mentioned.<BR/><BR/>Eyal.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com